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Post by Mr. Thomas on Mar 21, 2014 13:40:06 GMT -5
"Comin thro the rye..."
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Post by liamgoldfarb on Mar 23, 2014 11:00:13 GMT -5
C. I wonder if there was anything between Holden and Jane in the past? He continually debates calling her and recalls great memories he has had with her, so I wonder if there was ever something special between them? Holden seems to like Jane a lot so I wonder if Jane has the same feelings for Holden or of Holden just has a really huge crush? Why doesn’t Holden just go home early? He doesn’t seem to really be enjoying himself and he seems to miss his family especially Phoebe so why doesn’t he just go home? Also why does Holden act so immature around Carl Luce?
A. I find Holden to bit a bit hypocritical in this chapter. He always says how immature and annoying people are, but then he goes annoys the crap out of Carl Luce causing him to get up and leave Holden. I think it is so annoying in our society today how hypocritical people are. I liked that Holden was bold, but he acts hypocritical here by doing things that he would find incredibly irritating.
I. To answer my own question: why does Holden act so immature around Carl Luce? I believe Holden is once again trying to hold onto an old memory that makes him happy. This memory being that he liked the talks about sex he used to have in school with Carl. This is another example of Holden trying to hold onto something in the past and not being able to move forward.
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konrad
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by konrad on Mar 23, 2014 11:42:22 GMT -5
C. I am interested in chapter 19 when Holden meets Luce, his old friend from Whooton School, and Holden calls him in chapter 18. In the beginning to the end of chapter 19, why Holden called Luce in the first place, well he did call Jane first but no one answered, still is interesting how he introduces a new character to the plot all the sudden.
D. “I was getting a little too personal. I realize that. But that was one of the annoying things about Luce. When we were at Whooton, he’d make you describe the most personal stuff that happened to you, but if you started asking him questions about himself, he got sore.” (Salinger 147) This quotation is important for the plot and some of the main themes that are being featured because we could see that Holden, again, has some goal to accomplish when he in the city, something extraordinary. There are many possibilities that Holden sees himself as an opportunist, which he desires to seek the difference of personal love and personal relationship. In these chapters, Holden still desire to call Jane, and this happened frequently throughout the book. In addition to that fact, the idea of keeping the things the same, as he experienced in the museum before these chapters, he wants to preserve the personal love he has for Jane. Jane, for Holden, is piece of art that Holden found buried beneath the moments that he had with her and does not want to damage this art of his. However, with him meeting Luce, he goes belong the desire of attention and affection of other people. Holden’s personality, as we discussed in class, changes and matures overtime, as we see in some moments in the book. Holden fights with the dramatic of change that he is dealing with, the change of childhood into adulthood.
E. Holden’s personality changes slowly but it is coming to the point where he cannot be a child anymore. I would like to see if Holden actually calls Jane and makes that extraordinary goal that he wants to overcome.
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andro
New Member
Posts: 42
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Post by andro on Mar 23, 2014 14:33:17 GMT -5
D. "Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will." This quote really stood out to me. It's like this is. Holden's death wish. This shows us how much he hates everything and life. He has no stress in life and fear about anything.
E. Holden finally explains to us why he thinks his brother is a phony. "The part that got me was, there was a lady sitting next to me that cried all through the goddam picture. The phonier it got, the more she cried. You'd have thought she did it because she was kindhearted as hell, but I was sitting right next to her, and she wasn't. She had this little kid with her that was bored as hell and had to go to the bathroom, but she wouldn't take him. She kept telling him to sit still and behave himself. She was about as kindhearted as a goddam wolf."
C. The only thing that confuses me and keeps coming up is Holden bringing up memories with Jane. He still remembered all the good memories with her. It was like his first love. Your first love will always leave a mark in your life.
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Post by mikealiberti on Mar 23, 2014 18:15:54 GMT -5
E. Once again we see Holden thinking about Jane and cling her as well. We see for the first time Holden actually go through with his plan and actually call her. No one answers, so he decides to call an old friend of his from the Whooton School, Carl Luce, who was 3 years older than Holden. Carl used to give all of the younger boys information about sex. We see Holden once again return back to the unstable personality that we have seen him express throughout the book so far. He continuously asks Carl questions about sex, Carl refuses to answer and in an instant he leaves the bar abruptly. A. I feel that when Holden goes to Radio City Music Hall to see a movie there was some relation to wanting to go see or experience something that him and Allie used to do and enjoyed doing together. This is very easily relatable because we can infer that it has been very tough on Holden since the death of his brother and the only way of coping with it is by reminiscing on the good times they both shared together. C. I thought it was quite random that right after Holden called Jane and she did not answer he immediately called Carl and scheduled to get drinks with him. I thought that this came out of no where and I would have thought he would have just waited for Jane to call back.
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Post by richardliriano on Mar 23, 2014 19:56:27 GMT -5
C. What was the point of meeting with Luce? They didn’t discuss anything important at all. Was Holden just trying to waste Luce’s time? Holden just made a lot of stupid comments at Luce and Luce left. There was no point in that, why even include that in the story?
D. “drive all the phonies in the place mad with joy.” This shows how accepting Holden is starting to become. He enjoys being with the ‘phonies’ at least in this context it seems like he is enjoying himself.
I. andro I believe that he mentions Jane to go back to innocence. Jane is his most pure memory of innocence, it was his first love, and I don’t think anyone ever really stops thinking of their first love.
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loweryj
Junior Member
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by loweryj on Mar 24, 2014 4:54:17 GMT -5
E. The events in these chapters are mostly the aftermath of Sally leaving Holden at Rockefeller Center. Basically, I don’t think that we truly learn anything new or substantive, when it comes to Holden. We see many of the things that we already know reaffirmed by these two chapters. We continue to see that Holden hates films, he hates flashy things (like the guy Jane danced with and the Rockettes), and he doesn’t like phony things. He tried to call Jane for the first time since he left Pency, and no one answers. That made me sad. I thought that someone would answer, he would tell them what was going on, and he would go home and start to reintegrate back into home life. He meets with Luce and that doesn’t exactly go well, because he ends up hitting a nerve and insulting all of the people who can spare some time to keep him company. He needs to truly get it together.
C. There are a few things that I am just not understanding. In Holden’s meeting with Luce, we learn nothing new or substantive about Holden or what’s really going on. What was the purpose of this chapter ? Why does no one answer Holden’s call ? Why does Holden hang out with Luce, if he knows that Luce is a phony ? It doesn’t make complete sense to me.
A. In some of the parts of this story, you can see flashbacks hat Holden has about his sister and what he used to do with her. That kind of reminds me of me a bit. Whenever I’m thinking about something right in front of me, happening, I can relate that to something in the past and go in the moment, which is tantamount to flashbacking.
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Post by Louis Bentivegna on Mar 24, 2014 6:21:06 GMT -5
E.) We see Holden thinking about Jane again and he finally has the guts to call her. This is a big step for Holden he is gaining confidence throughout the book. I think the more confidence he gains the better his life will get. A.) Holden goes tithe movies to see a movie. This is very emotional because Holden remembers the people he loves by visiting past memories. C.) I didn't understand why Holden was so afraid to call Jane she has been his friend for years.
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Post by johnnydriza on Mar 24, 2014 6:48:46 GMT -5
D.Old Luce. What a guy. He was supposed to be my Student Adviser when I was at Whooton. The only thing he ever did, though, was give these sex talks and all, late at night when there was a bunch of guys in his room. He knew quite a bit about sex, especially perverts and all. He was always telling us about a lot of creepy guys that go around having affairs with sheep, and guys that go around with girls' pants sewed in the lining of their hats and all. And flits and Lesbians. […] He said it didn't matter if a guy was married or not. He said half the married guys in the world were flits and didn't even know it. He said you could turn into one practically overnight, if you had all the traits and all. He used to scare the hell out of us. I kept waiting to turn into a flit or something. The funny thing about old Luce, I used to think he was sort of flitty himself, in a way." Holden is confused about himself, about sex, nervous about his own abilities, and just an all-around mess. Carl Luce doesn’t help: in Luce’s worldview, sexuality is something that can turn on you at any second. You could literally just wake up gay. I. liamgoldfarb it is made very clear in chapter 11 that he does indeed have a history with Jane. Jane May or may not like him back. However Holden can feel himself wanting to take that risk sometimes.He doesn't go home yet because he still has the capable judgement to know what happens if he gets caught. He doesn't act immature around Carl Luce because he was never around him. If you clearly read which it is obvious you didn't, you'd have known that Carl Luce was somebody his old friend at Whooton used to talk about. E. Holden's relationship with his sister is different from the way other pieces of literature make it seem. His sister only shows him love and affection even after telling her about being kicked out of Pencey
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Post by crocketts16 on Mar 24, 2014 8:16:46 GMT -5
Catcher in the Rye Ch. 18-19 E. So about Carl Luce, I was very surprised with this character. First of all, I find that he is an interesting but an unessential character to this story. This may change later in the story but with the information we presently have I find that the author could have had a different minor character have drinks with him.
A. I found that Holden’s opinion on how just like the Nazi’s, the Army is also full of bastards. I respect the military and most of what they do but I understand how there is many people that aren’t fit to be doing the job that they are participating in. Also, there are just as many bad people on your side as there is on your enemy’s side.
C. Why does Holden call Carl of all people? I understand that he was lonely but if he has bad past experiences with him then why would he call him up to hang out and get a drink? Why not call someone else that he has a better history with? Ten after Carl leaves, Holden continues to call him a “pain in the ass”, I find this pointless to say because it is Holden’s fault for meeting with Carl, he could’ve just not called him. -Shane Crockett
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Post by thomasclark16 on Mar 24, 2014 9:21:38 GMT -5
E) Once again in this book we see Holden hesitate and think about calling Jane. He then remembers his memories of seeing jane dancing with what he calls the Moran known as (Al Pike) and he asked her why she would hang out with a guy like Al Pike. We also can notice how Holden once again show that he wants a loving relationship with Jane and not one of desire. But he is also worried about ruining his memories that he has of her because when he calls her he hangs up when o one answers. He probably hung up because he didn't want to interrupt if she was in the middle of something and because he was nervous and scared of the ripples he might create. D) " Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will."This quote in chapter 18 is a death wish from Holden and shows how he is frustrated. We can see frustration come from when he was thinking of Jane and seeing her with Al Pike. i) andro I feel the same way because Holden feels that he can develop a great relationship with and remembers his memories of her. But then he is to scared to confront her.
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Post by Ben Ezquerra on Mar 25, 2014 7:46:46 GMT -5
D. I feel like we didn't really learn much about Holden in these chapter. All of these feelings he is having he has also had before, so he hasn't really changed much except for the fact that he called Jane and almost talked to her, so this actually shows progress in his character. E. I find it a little amusing how Holden would always get annoyed when Ackley asked him many questions and now he's doing the same thing to Luce. I think that he hates the things in people that are also in himself, so in a way, he actually hates himself. I feel like that is why he is so depressed, he probably blames himself for all of the bad stuff that happens to people and that is why he tries to protect other people and the memories he has of them. He also acts self-destructively because of it and that is probably why he's antisocial. I. In response to richardliriano: Holden was meeting Luce because he was feeling lonely and depressed. He was all by himself and didn't have anything to do, the people that he knew were either not home or couldn't hang out with him and that is why he called Luce, one of his buddies from his old school. Even though Luce isn't such a nice guy, he knows things that Holden wants to learn and they do discuss those topics but I agree with you that it isn't that important in the story and is pointless to have there.
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Post by mattmelio on Mar 26, 2014 19:20:09 GMT -5
D) "Anyway, I'm sort of glad they've got the atomic bomb invented. If there's ever another war, I'm going to sit right the hell on top of it. I'll volunteer for it, I swear to God I will. (18.7)" This quote shows how much Holden doesn't care. This is some death wish. He wants to get blown up by an atomic bomb for gods sake. That's alil too far.
C) Was there anything between Jane and Holden in the past? He is always bringing up memories they had. When Holden runs out of money why doesn't he just go home instead of just trying to wait it out? What more can he do without money? When he meets his friend why is he kind of mean to him?
E) Holden's personality starts to change. He is starting to realize that he is not a child anymore and if he wants to survive and be alone he has to change. He is still very down and depressed. He has to learn to be happy again and move on with his life.
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