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Post by Mr. Thomas on Mar 19, 2014 8:41:25 GMT -5
"If a body meet a body, comin' through the rye..."
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Post by johnnydriza on Mar 19, 2014 14:15:53 GMT -5
D. "The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move.... Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. "The museum presents him with a vision of life he can understand: it is frozen, silent, and always the same. Holden can think about and judge the Eskimo in the display case, but the Eskimo will never judge him back. It troubles him that he has changed each time he returns, while the museum’s displays remain completely the same. They represent the simple, idealistic, manageable vision of life that Holden wishes he could live.
E. He thinks about Phoebe, whom he considers to be a wonderful girl because, although she’s only ten, she always understands what Holden means when he talks to her. He sees an oblivious little boy walking in the street, singing, “If a body catch a body coming through the rye.” The innocence of the scene cheers him up, and he decides to call Jane. In chapter 16 I finally get to see Holden let his guard down and show his more sentimental side. It's probably because he has been alone for a little while. You see, that is Holden's problem, he never stops to think about things and always wants companionship good or bad. We can see how thoughtful and grown up he is when the time is taken to ruminate on his actions and plans. He constantly has to put up a veil to protect himself from other people whom he thinks he needs experiences with. Holden does not realize that he can truly formulate himself if he takes time to think.
C. The way Holden acted on his date really confused me. He seems to want relationships and people to talk to. Why does he rant to Sally like a madman when everything is going just fine? I understand being and showing a sentimental side of him. However ranting and screaming like that does nothing and in fact makes him seem like more of a sissy than the intelligent person he can be.
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Post by liamgoldfarb on Mar 19, 2014 16:23:50 GMT -5
C. Why did Holden not enter the museum? He seemed so excited to go there, and then as soon as he saw it he turned the other way, why? Also isn’t it a bit creepy that Holden asked the girl who was around Phoebe’s age to get hot chocolate? I’m not exactly sure how old Phoebe is, I believe she is around ten years old, can anyone verify this? Do you guys think Holden is somewhat of a coward because he hung up the phone when Jane’s mom picked up the phone? Why did Holden even go on the date with Sally Hayes?
E. Holden really confused me as a character in chapter seventeen. First he is all over Sally and he weirdly proclaims his love for her. “I told her I loved her and all.” Before he met her he kept saying he didn’t like her. Also at the end up their date he makes her cry and leave. It seems to me that Holden is really selective in the people he likes. For example his family seems to have a special place in his heart, and people he believes have a hard life, but people who he thinks have it all, he doesn’t care one bit about them. I cannot determine if I think this is a good trait or a bad one.
I. Answering to Jonny “Why does he rant to Sally like a madman when everything is going just fine?” I think Holden bottles a lot of stuff inside of him and just let all of his feelings out at the wrong time to the wrong person.
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Post by richardliriano on Mar 19, 2014 17:37:46 GMT -5
C. “We horsed around a little bit in the cab on the way over to the theater” since Holden is a pathological liar, did this actually happen? If it did what exactly does horsing around refer to? Because horsing around could mean playing roughly, but since they are teenagers I assume that they mean something sexual? If it is sexual, what happened? Before he was complaining that he didn’t want to go on this date and now he is ‘horsing around’ in the back of a taxi? Then the question arises why would he horse around in the back of the taxi and not in his room?
F. I might be looking at this differently but I just want to point out that I think that Holden, kind of sees himself in Sally. I know it is weird, but she uses big words to sound smart and sophisticated and to show she is better than anyone else which is basically what he does. Holden thinks he is better than anyone, so I think that the only reason there is an actual relationship, for now, between these two characters is because they can relate to each other, in a sense.
I. I agree with liamgoldfard, I think he just bottles up all his emotion, and when finally expressing some emotion he just let all of his emotions and went on a rant at the wrong time and most definitely to the wrong person.
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john
New Member
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Post by john on Mar 19, 2014 17:55:54 GMT -5
A. When Holden is trying to find Phoebe and her friend said that she went to the Museum of Natural History. This is one of my favorite museums to visit. I can always find something new every time that I go.
C. When Holden sits down with Sally and Holden tells her about all the phony people at his prep school and in New York Society. He is feeling alienated. Why can't people just be genuine? Why do some people have to be fake? I find some people really have a hard time just being themselves.
D. Holden wants Sally to run away with him to a cabin in the wilderness. "I swear to God I'm a madman". Holden is starting to, if not lost it already. Mood swings with Sally. He is either happy or mad. Holden tells Sally she gives him "a royal pain in the ass". No one really cares what Holden is going through, except for Jane and Phoebe. How can anyone help him if he doesn't even want to help himself.
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Post by andrewbotti on Mar 19, 2014 19:24:05 GMT -5
C) I do not understand why Holden chose to not go inside of the museum. For the entire story, Holden has chosen to do something and stuck to those decisions. I feel like, for Holden, whenever he decides he wants to do something, he will do whatever it is that he wants. It didn’t seem like he didn’t want to go into the museum but just simply didn’t. It seemed like something just told him that he shouldn’t. Unless I missed something, it seems like he just opted not to. Why didn’t Holden go into the museum? E) I like how these chapters portray Holden’s feelings for Phoebe. It shows that Holden really isn’t looking for a girlfriend but is really just looking for a friend in general. He doesn’t mind the fact that she’s ten years old. If he was interested in dating this girl, the fact that she was ten years old would probably affect his feelings for her. This shows me that Holden really just needs a friend. These passages show how lonely Holden really is that he has resorted to being friends with a ten year old girl. But I believe that if any of us were in that situation, we would do the same thing. The fact that Holden chose to befriend Phoebe was intriguing. D) One quote interested me in these chapters. “The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything stayed right where it was. Nobody’d move… Nobody’d be different. The only thing that would be different is you.” This shows that our theory that Holden won’t speak to Jane because he is afraid that she would be different is accurate. He shows that he is afraid of change even though he is changing as well as everyone else. That quote proves us right.
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Post by Ben Ezquerra on Mar 19, 2014 20:00:44 GMT -5
A. I can kind of relate to what Holden says when he says that he was saying stuff and actually 100% meant it during that time but later on did not feel it. I think this happens to me a lot of times and that its not that the things that he says during that time are completely false, in fact they're true at that moment, but later on, they are not felt the same way.
C. I feel very confused at why Holden begins all of this stuff with Sally. At first he meets her and tells her he loves her and then he imagines what it would be like if they ran away together and never came back even though he doesn't even like her in that way. And then after this, after she denies this idea, he begins to insult her and make her feel bad about herself, why would he do that to her? Does he actually like her or not at all? Also why is it that after chapter 16 he has to go ahead and ruin this happiness and talk to that guy who he doesn't even know and considers a phony?
D. I really enjoyed all of chapter 16. He was feeling good about himself and he was no longer lonely or depressed, he was actually feeling pretty good and looking back at his memories, memories that he treasures and finds perfection in. He was happy with himself for once and enjoyed his life, and i found that really good, it was I think one of the only happy parts in the reading.
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Post by georgioup16 on Mar 19, 2014 20:24:56 GMT -5
D. I am so tired of hearing of Holden say and talk about the word “phony” honestly the amount of times he says this word in the book is enough to write a whole other book. Holden needs to stop using this word because he sort of contradicts himself when he says it. For example Sally’s friend he says he is snotty and such because of ivy league or whatever but he himself is acting like more of a snotty one for criticizing someone on how they act and such. Also another “phony” thing Holden has done is when at the beginning of the date Holden says how he loves Sally but by the end he starts to get annoyed by her.
C. Why does Holden tell Sally all these lies saying how he loves her which is a huge thing to tell a girl especially at the age of 17 where those words to a girl her age would be like winning the lottery, if he does not feel this way really he should not have it said it because as the date goes on he just starts to get more and more annoyed by Sally so why does he say it in the first place?
E. I noticed in these chapters again that Holden is once again more inclined to talk to strangers as he talks to Phoebe’s friend who is going skating, if it was someone he knew he would be all weird about it like he usually is but because its someone he doesn’t really know he talks normally with her and tries to befriend her as well.
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andro
New Member
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Post by andro on Mar 19, 2014 20:30:24 GMT -5
D. “The best thing, though, in that museum was that everything always stayed right where it was. Nobody'd move. You could go there a hundred thousand times, and that Eskimo would still be just finished catching those two fish, the birds would still be on their way south, the deers would still be drinking out of that water hole. Nobody'd be different. The only thing that would be different would be you. Not that you'd be so much older or anything. It wouldn't be that exactly. You'd just be different, that's all. You'd have an overcoat on this time. Or that kid that was your partner in line last time had got scarlet fever and you'd have a new partner. Or you'd have a substitute taking the class, instead of Miss Aigletinger. Or you'd heard your mother and father having a terrific fight in the bathroom. Or you'd just passed by one of those puddles in the street with gasoline rainbows in them. I mean you'd be different in some way – I can't explain what I mean. And even if I could, I'm not sure I'd feel like it.” Holden likes the Natural History museum because it was always the same: It was like a childhood memory. That he will always remember and never change.
C. The way Holden reacted on his date was pretty weird. First he hates sexual desires, then he starts to get some. Then he backs away. He starts to act like me on the date, screaming like a child? He’s learning from the best though, master andro. Does he even know his own gender?? He shouldn’t have the right to be called a man.
B. I agree with Rabbi Goldfarb. Holden has a lot of mood swings. Which changes him and makes him a special character. He has different emotions at different times and he doesn’t know how to express them.
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loweryj
Junior Member
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Posts: 50
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Post by loweryj on Mar 20, 2014 4:51:57 GMT -5
E. These two chapters seem pretty weird. In these chapters, we can see Holden out a little more. In other chapters, we saw him, either in the hotel, a nightclub, or a taxicab. In these chapters, we see him interacting in new environments in public, like a park, a theatre, and Radio City Music Hall / Rockefeller Center. In those different areas, we see that he can be calm, but there are some places that he truly can be oblivious. At Rockefeller Center, while Holden was with Sally, he kind of has a mental breakdown, after they go skating. Sally and Holden go into Rockeffler Center and Holden starts to go on a rant about people in the high society. He starts to rant about all of the phonies in society and he wants to leave the phony world with her. He, also, insults her and makes her sad. Then he leaves. I think that this part of the story shows how Holden is truly affected by phonies in society.
C. Why Holden have such an outburst, in public ? Why couldn’t he just tell her about this in private ? Why does Holden insult Sally ? She didn’t do anything wrong ? She just said no to running away ?
A. The outburst that Holden has kind or reminds me of the outburst in “Hithcock”, with Anthony Hopkins. It reminds me of when Alfred Hitchcock starts to talk about how bad movie producers are to Alma, except it was in the privacy of their own home.
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Post by thomasclark16 on Mar 20, 2014 11:48:09 GMT -5
E) I feel that Holden still shows that he wants a loving relationship rather than one of sexual desire. He lies to Sally about how much he loves her. I don't feel like this was appropriate because it is morally wrong to lie about love at such a young age. C) why would Holden lie to Sally to her face about how much he supposedly loves her? A) I really like this book cause I feel that I can relate to it due to its setting which is in on of the best cities in the world NYC. Also because in this reading Phoebe goes to the Natural Hostory Museum which is a great place.
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Post by mattmelio on Mar 20, 2014 12:03:30 GMT -5
D) "But there was one nice thing. This family that you could tell just came out of some church were walking right in front of me – a father, a mother, and a little kid about six years old. They looked sort of poor. […] The kid was swell. […] He was making out like he was walking a very straight line, the way kids do, and the whole time he kept singing and humming. […] It made me feel better. It made me feel not so depressed anymore." (16.3) By just looking and observing the family made him feel happier. Holden kind of gets a sense of connection,especially by watching the little kid. He gets less depressed when he watches this family. It makes him feel important.
C) I was confused on why Holden did not want to go into the museum when he got there? He was so excited to go and then changes his mind last minute. Also why did he ask that little girl to get hot chocolate with me? I understand that he's lonely but she is only like 11 years old.
I) I agree with Ben. Chapter 16 was a good one because Holden was not really depressed or sad at all. He was happy for the most part of it. He was recalling many happy memories and was very happy when he was watching the family. He seemed like a different person in this chapter.
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Post by crocketts16 on Mar 20, 2014 12:12:05 GMT -5
Catcher in the Rye Ch. 16-17 D. I found it interesting when Holden said, “I hate actors. They never act like people.” This may sound illogical but it is actually very true. I also usually find that hey act like no person I have ever met. This is one of the few times in which I agree with Holden about his opinions on people as “Phonies.” I find that they try too hard to either act as the “perfect person” or as a stereotype. Rarely, you can come across a movie or show with characters that you can actually relate to.
E. I enjoyed the situations were Holden claimed to be a madman. Yet I am confused of why he is being put in those situations. For example, if he doesn’t truly love Sally, then why does he ask her to marry him then speak of moving to Vermont together? On multiple occasions, Holden goes through this situation that he later regrets and he claims to not have known why he did it. For example, he says that at the time, he truly meant that he loved Sally, yet he knows that he hates her because she is so phony. He then says how he swears that he is a madman for this reason.
F. I found it fairly ironic how two of the phoniest people by Holden’s standards, Sally and her friend, turned out be best friends. They then talked with each other and were unknowingly fascinated by each other’s phoniness. Also, what they speak of happens to be what Holden used as examples to say who is usually phony based on their opinions. -Shane Crockett
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konrad
Junior Member
Posts: 55
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Post by konrad on Mar 20, 2014 22:05:29 GMT -5
C. At the ending of Chapter 17 of the book, why did Holden call Sally a “royal pain in the ass” when he is finally, for the first time in the book, was opening to anyone and considers her not to be one of those “phonies” as he described in the book?
D. “We horsed around a bit in the cab on the way to the theater. At first she didn’t want to, because she had her lipstick on and all, but I was being seductive as hell and she didn’t have any alternatives.” (Salinger 125) This quote is interesting and ideally sets a stage for Holden to make the next move, but it goes utterly wrong at the ending of chapter 17. I think that this is his first approach that he made with Jane years ago, trying to make close relationships. The relationships can be hard to master, as for many people it can be the greatest day of their lives or just wasting time with another person. Of course, after the quotation that I picked, Holden and Sally went to the movies to see “I Know My Love,” which stars the Lunts. Later, went to the ice ring at Rockefeller and we can see that Holden is sharing his life stories with Sally, or at least what he thinks about the situations he was in, like him in the Museum where he wanted to see his little sister, Phoebe, but was trapped by the wonders that the Museum had to offer for him, such as the early humanoids and common animals to make scenes into real life. This representation of love, which Holden things serves the main goal for his well-being, can change his point of view dramatically when spending with other people, which I think he will pursue even more and make up what he did at the ice ring.
E. Holden is developing his thoughts and actions when spending time with other people, such as the nuns he talked too and with Sally as well. We can see his progress in a broad sense that he change his attitude and his own perspectives of other people if he spends a decent amount of time with them. I wonder what Holden’s next move will be?
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Post by IsacLat on Jan 24, 2022 17:59:36 GMT -5
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